On Sunday, Geoff Cameron was named man-of-the-match in his first game for his new team, Stoke City. After weeks of waiting and paperwork, Cameron was finally able to take the pitch after a transfer that continued the gradual march of quality U.S. players into higher leagues. Playing midfield (!) his City team held the usually high-scoring Arsenal to a scoreless draw and added another point to a total that, by the end of the season, will undoubtedly be enough to remain in the top flight of the best soccer league in the world.
On the heals of this successful debut, national teammate and sometimes backline mate Maurice Edu announced that he had freed himself from the mess that was Rangers in the Scottish system and was coming to Stoke. The move brought memories of past U.S. players gathering at prominent teams, including Landon Donovan and Tim Howard at Everton, pairings that brought the less glamorous (at least in casual soccer fans’ eyes) teams into the U.S. consciousness. Two U.S. national team players potentially starting for the same EPL side would naturally lead one to think that Stoke City would become a more recognized, acknowledged, and embraced side for U.S. soccer fans. It also seemingly fulfills U.S. national team head coach Jurgen Klinsmann’s desire to have more of his players playing at a higher level.
But before we all go out and buy our striped Britannia shirts, I would suggest that this exodus of U.S. talent to Staffordshire is actually a negative to the U.S. national team and I think we will rue the day both players joined the side. For those unaware, the Potters play a style of football that can generously be called survivalist and traditional or, more accurately and more negatively, can be called dragging soccer back into the 1960s. The strategy for Tony Pulis’s side is simple: pack your own end of the field with as ten of your starting 11 and, when you finally gain possession of the ball, hoof it up-field to your target man (this season, English national Peter Crouch). To call this a defensive style is slightly misleading, as it is rather a physical style where the defenders will do what they can to dispossess the opposition of the ball. Away teams going into the Britannia know they will come out black and blue, and they will struggle for every chance on net they get. Against the Potters, an away draw is usually a very good thing.
That is not to say that such a style of play is reprehensible (at least until they, say, break someone’s leg). The fact is Stoke City are way out of the spending league of teams at the top of the EPL table, and their embrace of this physical style have allowed them to stay up in the top flight since 2008. But their style is not the style of play that Klinsmann is trying to impose on his team and it is actually quite the opposite. Klinsmann wants the national team to play a smooth passing, possession based but attacking style of play. This is the exact opposite of how Stoke approach a game and I wonder if the vast difference in play will negatively impact Edu and Cameron. Players are often asked to play multiple styles between national and club teams, but this instance may be different.
Why? The positional play will be different for both teams. Edu has normally played as a holding midfielder in the U.S. system but after his successful stint in the Mexico friendly, there may be a future at that position in the next World Cup. Cameron lined up in the midfield on Sunday but his national team future is seemingly in the backline. For players who have struggled to establish a set position nationally, this back and forth could hinder the U.S. team. Both of these players should be playing for a team that will at least be nominally similar in style and playing the positions where they look most promising. If that is in the Championship or another league, so be it. When Jurgen Klinsmann said he wanted his pool of players to play at the highest level, this is not what he meant. I hope we do not regret these signings, especially at such a critical position, but I suspect we will.
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Wellfed Sounder
August 30, 2012 at 3:02 pm
Robert Hay- Man, kicked a bee’s nest with the EPL/Stoke City thing,
huh?
Lysander
August 30, 2012 at 12:33 pm
1. You should state ‘One of the top leagues’ not the top league’.
2. This blog is for MLS right? What does this story have to do with
MLS? Both play for EPL now.
Charles
August 29, 2012 at 3:17 pm
I love how in these conversations EVERYONE, and by everyone I mean
everyone ( except me ) ignores the money. Hilliarious. IF Houston
offered him more money, he would be back before some troll could
say “EPL is greatest league in the world”. End of story.
Clampdown
August 29, 2012 at 10:50 am
Hey Robert. I am surprised this is on MLS Talk, as it has little to
do with MLS. But, anyway, while I get the point you’re trying to
make I can’t say I agree. I used to be one of those who liked to
take a pop at Stoke for their less than pleasing approach to the
game, and particularly the long throw tactics. I have since come to
appreciate Stoke quite a bit more. They aren’t all brawn, no skill.
While they still rely heavily on a physical approach to the game
they actually do move the ball around pretty well and have some
skillful players. While I also thought that perhaps it wouldn’t be
best to have both Cameron and Edu there at the same time, I’ve
changed my mind on that as well. Really, what’s the harm in having
two players that are versatile enough to play both defensive mid
and center back. Both of these guys have done it before in their
careers. If they are good enough and comfortable enough doing that
I think it’s a good situation both for Stoke and the USMNT. While
Klinsmann may want to play a different style than Pulis, I don’t
think it really matters. Edu and Cameron have both been
professionals for several years. The skill set they have is the
skill set they are going to have. They might become more
intelligent players as time goes on, and playing at Stoke may
actually force them to think and react quicker than they had to
previously in MLS and Scotland. That would be a positive for the
national team. As someone said above, Klinsmann is going to select
the best available options. The US team is already overloaded with
defensive mid options. If anything, having Edu drop back into a
center back position would be great for the US because he isn’t the
best among the midfield options.
jam123
August 29, 2012 at 10:13 am
It doesn’t matter how a team plays the game as long as it follows
the rules and regulations of The EPL there isn’t any reason why
people should argue that their style of play is ‘negative’. If it
works for stoke then why change it?
Charles
August 31, 2012 at 2:30 pm
Dont think that anyone said they should change. The team has to do,
what it has to do, but that doesn’t mean that Americans would want
NT mambers to play there. They are not going to play like Houston
does, where he first developed into NT quality, obviously.
Sc scf scfc ok
August 29, 2012 at 9:35 am
Robert Hay, you are an imbecile. I suggest you do not look at the
amount of feedback you get, but rather the content of it. As you
have clearly skimmed through the feedback without understanding it
(very much in the same way you obviously researched Stoke before
writing this utter dross) I imagine you did not pick up on the
common sentiment which is; your article is shite, and that as a
national team you are lucky to have midfielders that are pitting
their wits against the best in the world and at the very least,
training with players who do. The only negative resulting from the
Cameron and Edu move to Stoke is the increased exposure I will now
have to ill informed and poorly written articles such as this one.
And “Roster”…?! Are you serious?! Give yourself a day off.
Robert Hay
August 29, 2012 at 9:34 am
Yeah Alan I am surprised more people aren’t complaining about that.
I thought ::that:: would make people mad….
Alan
August 29, 2012 at 4:12 pm
It doesn’t make me mad honestly. It just makes those people lose
credibility. See my above comment.
Alan
August 29, 2012 at 1:43 am
Did I stumble upon the right blog? I think you lost me at “EPL is
the best league in the world”.
SSReporters
August 29, 2012 at 2:48 pm
MLS is the best league in the world, right?
Charles
August 29, 2012 at 3:13 pm
Amen bro !
Alan
August 29, 2012 at 4:10 pm
It all depends on the individual fan really. Obviously for Charles
it is, and there is nothing wrong with that. For some of those
posting here the EPL is, and that’s ok too. I would personally
rather watch Serie A, La Liga, and Bundesliga over EPL for various
reasons personally, mostly due to the style of play that tends to
surround those leagues. I find EPL rather boring outside of the top
4 teams. Again, that is my personal opinion. If Arsenal, Man U, or
Man City are not playing, then I turn it off pretty quick (unless
Chelsea is getting beat because I despise them). This stupid notion
that there is a defined “best league in the world” is silly, and
anybody that spews such nonsense loses instant credibility. I don’t
care if you think that all of the best players play there (they
don’t) or that the league has the best play overall (I don’t). It
doesn’t make it so for everyone. I follow MLS mostly because I have
a local team that I can watch in person and the same 3 teams don’t
win every year, but I DO watch other leagues and other national
teams (my favorites being Italy, Arsenal, Juventus, AS Roma, and
Atletico Madrid – not in that order). Good job trying to troll me
and box me into a corner though.
Manny
September 14, 2012 at 5:40 pm
No sarcasm, man! Be Real!
SSReporters
August 28, 2012 at 10:06 pm
I’m just shocked Stoke haven’t snapped up Jermaine Jones given like
many other Stoke players he’s a red card waiting to happen. This
article is um …. the other commenters beat me to the punch.
Pete
August 28, 2012 at 9:44 pm
@TG “he fact is that The Potters would probably tear up the US
international team and beat them thoroughly. UP THE MIGHTYH
POTTERS!” Hahahaha, thanks for the laugh buddy.
TG
August 28, 2012 at 5:57 pm
If the world’s 2nd oldest club is buying up american
FOOTBALL-players is a bad thing for the U.S of A, then I don’t know
what’s what anymore.. The fact is that The Potters would probably
tear up the US international team and beat them thoroughly. UP THE
MIGHTYH POTTERS!
Manny
September 14, 2012 at 5:38 pm
I’ve seen Stoke City play many, many, may times. They do play a
physical and bunkered down style of “football”. I’m seeing this
from an objective point of view. I watch EPL, La Liga, and Serie-A
matches ever weekend over the past 12 years or more! 1.EPL=the
fastest league in the world, very physical, and most exciting in
terms of play. 2. La Liga=A lot more technical than the EPL and a
bit slower in terms of pace, but creativity on the ball and passing
is much more evident. 3.Serie-A=A physical, yet technical league
with a demand on midfield play and very structured defenses. Based
on Research done over the past 10 years, La Liga and Serie-A Clubs
have won most of the Champions League Tournaments In Europe, so the
EPL, is a bit overrated! I don’t see the EPL being the best league
in the world in a few years…
The original Tom
August 28, 2012 at 4:14 pm
US players do not exist for the national team, they exist to
further their own careers. Then the national team picks the best.
Hence, Klinsman can give counsel, but it is not all about him and
his team. Having said that, I agree that playing and winning on a
quality Championship (English tier 2) side is better than riding
the bench of a top EPL club- that is true for all players, no
matter the nationality. Same for playing in the MLS as opposed to
riding the bench somewhere else. All this dismisses money, however;
if you can make a million bucks instead of a working man’s wage,
you’ve got to take it.
Tijuana Robert
August 28, 2012 at 5:15 pm
I’d rather ride the pine for Stoke than play in the Championship.
The reason, it makes you fight for a starting spot, which elevates
your game.
Alex
August 28, 2012 at 3:40 pm
“My point here is that two transitional players on the same team IS
a negative when the style does not conform to what the national
team wants them to be” Actually you made a much larger point than
the above streamlined version of it….. And again, Kilinsmann
wanted Cameron at Stoke. I certainly trust his judgement over yours
on to what he thinks will help a player at the national level, no
offense. I believe the US team is a bit like Stoke, they sit back,
defend and counter. Thus, I think this is a good move. Cameron is
and will get playing time. Were you upset when Edu rode the pine at
the Rangers? Your whole point is they might not play? But what if
theya re, then does that make your whole blog pointless? Cameron is
playing again today And I 100% disagree, playing against better
competetion makes you better …in all sports. That is why your
bring players up (say in baseball) from single A to triple A.
Pretty much most coaches will tell you that. As for Charles,
Dempsey plays quite a bit, so not sure what you mean? He played 37
games last year. If you mean this season, well he indicated he
wanted to leave Fulhum, so what do you expect? And you bring up
Breck Shea – just maybe he is not devloping where is is and needs
bigger challenges. If you are calling this season beneficial to his
carrer, I beg to differ. He needs a change, and I think the call up
against Mexico was a good call by Klinsmann
Charles
August 29, 2012 at 3:10 pm
My point with Dempsey is he is not playing this year and may not
play at all this year. Do you really think anyone in England cares
? No. They are probably glad he is not playing. We won their group
in the last WCup. IF he were in the US, everyone involved would
make sure that problem is solved. ( not saying Dempsey should move,
so no one go off on tangents I don’t give a cr@p about )
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
I can see what you are saying about Shea, I just disagree. I think
Americans go overseas, they are more expendable than the
non-foreign counterparts. Like LD and other MLS players that moved,
Shea could easily handle the “bigger” challenge….its not that big
of a deal.
steve
August 28, 2012 at 3:24 pm
the english prem league is the best in the world – you should be
glad of any u.s.a player playing here, let alone stoke its far
faster and physical than u.s.a football (as cameron said in
interview)
CTBlues
August 28, 2012 at 3:29 pm
It’s better to be playing in division 2 then riding the pine in
division 1 waiting for someone to get hurt or stop performing.
CTBlues
August 28, 2012 at 3:30 pm
*than
Charles
August 29, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Ummm, yeah in an interview for a British newspaper ? Landon said he
really like playing for Everton so much some thought he was going
to move. Everton is probably still overly excited about it. And no
we should not just be glad a US player is playing there. Wrong.
Robert Hay
August 28, 2012 at 3:12 pm
Wow, I am glad something I wrote has gotten such feedback! To
answer some of the numerous questions/statements that have been
made, just because you are on the roster for a team in the EPL does
not make it the best possible fit. I would rather these
non-automatic selections (of which Cameron and, yes, Edu are) go to
a team where they will get playing time and grow their game. Brek
Shea will go through this soon – is it better ManCity (for example)
sign him and he not play? Just being on a top team in Europe does
not make you a better player, and if you listen to the EPL Talk
podcast you will hear their discussions of young British (English,
Welsh, Scot) players suffering at times from this mentality. I
think playing for a well-managed, Championship side is not a bad
thing. Is Stoke City a poorly managed second rate club? Not
according to their track record. My point here is that two
transitional players on the same team IS a negative when the style
does not conform to what the national team wants them to be. And
yes, I have watched Stoke play. Let the debate continue, this has
been great.
Pat in Houston
August 28, 2012 at 3:48 pm
There is an argument to be made that sitting at a top flight club
hinders development more than playing at a lower level club.
However, that didn’t appear to be the argument you were actually
making in your original post. The post’s main point was the
detrimental effects of American players playing different roles
with club and country. To the extent that that argument is even
logical, it disregards the overwhelming weight of the positive
effects the continued trend of more Americans playing in European
top flight leagues will have on USMNT.
Alex
August 28, 2012 at 2:41 pm
I know who Kinnear is than you very much. Newsflash – Kinnear and
Kinsmann wanted Cameron to go to Stoke. Klinsmann wrote a letter
along with Bradley to help me this happen. So let me guess, you
know more than the last two managers and Cameron’s ex-coach. Stoke
not that good? What better teams are Americans currently playing
for????? And have you even factored in the level of competition
that Cameron will face now with the likes of Man City, Arsenal,
Chelsea, United ……or do you also think he is better suited
developing playing against the MLS clubs?
Earl Reed
August 28, 2012 at 2:52 pm
And here’s a Newsflash: Maurice Edu was not at Stoke when that campaign for Cameron’s transfer was in full force.
Charles
August 28, 2012 at 2:53 pm
Didn’t see you on there Alex. Sorry I know you know
Kinnear…………………………………………We will
disagree but I think that players are better off in many cases not
moving to England. The teams are very deep in England ( unlike MLS
) and the games are very unrealistic. See Man Citys +69 GD last
year. All that adds up to is American playing for a team that gives
up a ton of goals ( bad if you are trying to develop offensively
too ), if you fall out of favor because your team gives up too many
goals, good luck, you will be sitting like Dempsey and no one gives
a cr@p. They are probably happy to see Dempsey sit, no ? In MLS
Brek Shea goes through a stretch, and he still plays, and starts to
play well, when he moves to Europe soon, not so. Does he get back,
after a bad spell in England ? Good luck, see Dempsey for that
answer…………………..If someone got on a top team,
different story.
Charles
August 28, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Who are these new people blogging ? Did Robert Hay ticked of the
EPL crowd ? What a joke………………..For the making and
developing for that national team, Kinnear’s leadership is HUGE.
And Stoke is not that good. It must be quite a bit more money.
Almost a given that Robert Hay has seen Stoke play ( way too much
thanks to ESPN ) wonder how many posting even know who Kinnear is ?
I would say the guy that says he is from Houston, but he asked for
Gaffer for “editorial discretion”…..Gaffer ? Are you kidding me ?
There is no one with more slanted journalism. Seriously, Gaffer ?
Earl Reed
August 28, 2012 at 2:49 pm
Well, our editor does go by the name, “The Gaffer.” I’m sure he’s from Houston.
With that being said, I’m not so concerned about the team they went to, but instead the fact they BOTH went to Stoke. They both need time on the pitch to improve. They are both central midfielders, and in Pulis’ system, only two defensive or box-to-box midfielders can be deployed. Pulis has Dean Whitehead, Rory Delap, and Wilson Palacios vying for time. Regardless of how direct or how free-flowing Stoke plays, someone’s going to sit on the bench, not getting playing time.
James
August 28, 2012 at 2:19 pm
My biggest concern for Edu and the national team would be the game
time he’ll get at Stoke. Cameron, Whelan, Palacios, Whitehead,
Delap, Ness, and Huddlestone rumoured to be arriving soon. All
rivals at centre midfield. Rangers fans, to a man, couldn’t wait to
see Edu out of the door, and Stoke’s only rivals for his signature
were Championship team, Ipswich. He’ll get encouragement from the
Stoke faithful, but the signs are concerning for his long term
prospects.
David Cameron
August 28, 2012 at 2:10 pm
Stupid cunt.
Andy Jones
August 28, 2012 at 2:08 pm
I have to say this Journalism as poor as what American football is
!!!! Enough said … Robert Hay u must be toss at your job
Alex
August 28, 2012 at 1:51 pm
What a load of rubbish. First, against most major opponets, the US
has to defend unless Hay thinks we are passing Spain/Germany and
such off the pitch. But I assume he is not dumb enough to think
that. Or does Hay think that Man City and United were ready to make
bids on Cameron and Edu??? So then, I can think of no better place
to learn how to defend properly and keep a shape than Stoke City.
Furthermore, Stoke has shown signs of improvement through their
signings and play. If you watched the Potters 4 years ago, and
watch them now, you see better players and ambition. As an American
I have grown to love the Potters, and am glad they have two
Americans playing with them. Hay obviously bought into the
sterotype without watching the Stoke game in game out like I have.
I actually went and saw them play last year (beat Fulhum 2-0), and
will return again and hopefully will see Cameron grow with team
peno
August 28, 2012 at 1:48 pm
what a load of poor rubish,or garbage this report is,stoke are in
the best league in the world
S
August 28, 2012 at 1:37 pm
yeah, i mean….US internationals in one of the top 3 leagues in
the world can only be a good thing for us
Pat in Houston
August 28, 2012 at 1:24 pm
This is one of the most inane, wrong-headed, short-sighted articles
I’ve ever seen on a site that, frankly, seems to specialize in
them. Would you rather they play in the MLS? Hold out until
Barcelona come calling? Has playing attacking mid at Fulham hurt
Dempsey’s ability to play forward/striker when needed by USMNT?
American players playing top-flight football in Europe, regardless
of the club’s on-field tendencies, is ESSENTIAL to the future
development of the national program. More successful American
players will do wonders to reverse anti-American stereotypes among
European coaches/executives, thus opening more frequent and more
lucrative opporutunites. This, in turn, would lead to more current
American players being developed in the world’s best leagues
year-round, but it also makes the idea of playing soccer more
attractive to young American athletes – which is the MOST important
key to the USA becoming a successful nation in international
football. But even if I forgive the ridiculousness (as shown above)
of the premise on the basis that you have to publish SOMETHING
every day just for the sake of content, the author’s shallow and
misguided support of this premise (re: Stoke’s tendencies) render
the piece completely meritless. How ’bout a little more editorial
discretion please, Gaffer?
dawson
August 28, 2012 at 1:17 pm
First im glad more American players from the MLS are coming to the
premier league! 1.it will show and improve USA players how to play
the real game of football, instead of usa soccer 2.will help the
USA national team further progress in tournaments, lets face it USA
have never gotten to a quater-final in a world cup tournament. Or
for that matter never won any trophy. stoke city is the team i
support. Always have done, Always will do we have gotten to a FA
Cup final, done well in the Europe League ok are style is not the
best, but it works, you make stoke city sound as if they go out and
break limps every 3 seconds…you must be a Arsenal FC fan ok we
don’t have the money but were not in a £500 million pound debit
like Man-Utd or a Russian oil tycoon like Chelsea have at least
stoke city dont buy players like big names like beckham who are
passed there prime who MLS clubs only buy these players not for the
play but for the publicity and selling shirts the MLS is scrapheap
league mostly full of international players passed there prime,
(Beckham,Henry) bet you in 20 years time messi moves to LA GALAXY
Tijuana Robert
August 28, 2012 at 1:18 pm
Your comment is hard to read.
CTBlues
August 28, 2012 at 2:16 pm
You must only watch the LA Galaxy and Redbulls matches if any at
all if you think the MLS is a bunch of out of work 30+ year old
players.
Charles
August 28, 2012 at 2:43 pm
One, I think he forgot US won their group stage in the last world
cup. Probably one of those guys that bet on England to win it all.
I wondered at the time who was that dumb to make them one of the
favorites.
……………………………………………………………..
Two, why does he think Hay is an Arsenal fan ? I missed something
there. Maybe he could take a guess who I root for….hint, I live
in Seattle.
Nigel
August 28, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Man United?
Manny
September 14, 2012 at 5:26 pm
They did get to a quarter-final (2002) and a semi-final (1930). We
don’t need to learn football from the brits, since u haven’t won
anything since 1966!
Simon
August 28, 2012 at 1:10 pm
You obviously don’t watch much of Stoke City then? You can’t watch
the Arsenal game and make a snap judgement when most teams deploy
such a tactic against the gunners. Sure they are a physical team
with players like Huth, Shawcross, Whelan etc, but what about
Etherington, Pennant and Kightly? They are forward thinking
attacking wingers, and from what I see of Stoke (which is quite a
lot as my flat mate is a Stoke fan), most of the play goes through
them. Adding Cameron to that midfield only adds another player who
likes to play passing football, so I’m sorry, but you are being
completely unfair on Stoke as a football club. Too busy listening
to pundits who do the exact same thing and only watch the team when
they play the big clubs. They are not their to kick people off the
park despite what their reputation says (the Aaron Ramsey leg break
was an accident). This is a totally unfair, disrespectful
assessment and one that is completely wrong. They are an
established Premier League team, so no, Cameron playing for a team
in the best league in the world, in front of some of the loudest
fans in the land is not bad for the US national team. Ridiculous
blog post.
Simon
August 28, 2012 at 1:21 pm
*there (to kick people off the park) Cameron playing *for a
mid-table team in the best league in the world.
Tijuana Robert
August 28, 2012 at 1:04 pm
I respect your opinion but Stoke City is probably one of the best
mid-table clubs in the EPL.
Brandon
August 28, 2012 at 1:03 pm
As a fellow analyst, I can definitely see what you are getting at.
But I do think that you may be over-dramatizing the possible
negative effects while completely overlooking the positive aspects.
Glenn
August 28, 2012 at 1:03 pm
What nonsense. A good player is a good player no matter what system
they are asked to perform in. Are you suggesting that Cameron and
Edu would be better off at Houston or Rangers respectivley? Clearly
they are not good enough for a top 6 side in England so I would
think they should be happy that Stoke City have decided to take a
chance on them both. I see you have also bought into the media (and
Arsenal?) myths regarding Stoke City. There was once a time when
football (yes, football) was considered a man’s sport. God forbid
you ever saw Denis Smith or Mick Pejic in their prime at
Stoke……you would probably have fainted at the sight of the
blood……and that was just thier own!
Andy
August 28, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Has the writer actually seen Stoke play? It’s quite lazy
“journalism” to post such an article without a true understanding
of Stoke’s style of play………
mbob
August 28, 2012 at 12:53 pm
What an absolute load of crap. You don’t know what you’re talking
about knob!